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Old 08-19-2010, 01:43 PM  Texas_XD is offline     #1 (permalink)
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Default SwampFox Ammo

Since your forum is, shall we say, on the small side, I thought I'd address these questions here instead on the ammo that interests me.

You list 3 different .40 S&W loads that may suit my needs:

1. 180gr. Gold Dot HP's - 1200fps @ 524ft/lb energy

2. 155gr Win. SilverTip HP's- 1325fps @ 600ft/lb energy

3. 175gr Win. SilverTip HP's- 1240fps @ 560ft/lb energy

What would be the benefits and negatives of using one of these three over the other two?

Which of the two bullet types strike you as a better terminal performer?

Are the same powders/primers used in all three? If different, why?

Is the powder choice used allow good burn in all barrel lengths or more selected for a particular range of length?

I must confess, I am a factory guy.. always have bought most of my pistol ammo in commercial boxes. But I do recognize the benefits of semi-custom/custom ammos for SD/HD. I've dabbled in reloading pistol ammo, but mainly focus on my rifles. Paying a bit more for piece of mind knowing an actual human may have more to do with constructing my ammo than price tagging it, is worthwhile to me.

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Old 08-19-2010, 03:46 PM  swampfoxammo is offline     #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas_XD View Post
Since your forum is, shall we say, on the small side, I thought I'd address these questions here instead on the ammo that interests me.

You list 3 different .40 S&W loads that may suit my needs:

1. 180gr. Gold Dot HP's - 1200fps @ 524ft/lb energy

2. 155gr Win. SilverTip HP's- 1325fps @ 600ft/lb energy

3. 175gr Win. SilverTip HP's- 1240fps @ 560ft/lb energy

What would be the benefits and negatives of using one of these three over the other two?

Which of the two bullet types strike you as a better terminal performer?

Are the same powders/primers used in all three? If different, why?

Is the powder choice used allow good burn in all barrel lengths or more selected for a particular range of length?

I must confess, I am a factory guy.. always have bought most of my pistol ammo in commercial boxes. But I do recognize the benefits of semi-custom/custom ammos for SD/HD. I've dabbled in reloading pistol ammo, but mainly focus on my rifles. Paying a bit more for piece of mind knowing an actual human may have more to do with constructing my ammo than price tagging it, is worthwhile to me.
Ok, This may, and probably is going to be long.

I'll answer your third question first and get into the others a little deeper.

In the 40S&W loads I have, they all use the same type of powder and primers. The primers may be Winchester or Remington and the powder is Hodgdon. The powder charge is different weight depending on bullet weight and desired speed.

The powder charge is designed to work in the range of barrels available for a particular caliber without developing pressures that are to high for that particular caliber.

In other words the longer the barrel the higher the pressures for a given powder charge and bullet. So, in the case of a .40, I load for a 6 inch barrel in my standard ammo. I can optimize a load for another length and often do with the understanding that the pressure would be higher if used in a longer barrel.

Example: a glock 22 has a 4.49" barrel but can be upgraded to a 6".
The standard ammo will safely come near max on the 6" but will be lower in the 4.49".

I take that into consideration when loading standard ammo.

Then also, I use a slow burning powder that yields higher speeds with lower pressures than most factory loads. Giving me an extra margin to work with.

This minimizes or narrows the difference in pressures between short and long barrels. Also,

The makers of Longer barrels take this into consideration when making these barrels and add strength where needed in anticipation of the higher pressures from the extra length.

As to which is a better terminal performer, meaning a human target.
It comes down to some very small differences that are compromised to some degree on pratically every target.

I actually have 6 loads for that caliber but am behind on my site.
I'll add them to this discussion because they have different behavior characteristics that the three above.

The additional three are the 155, 180 and 200gr Hornady XTP.

So, Now it's all about the target, the distance to the target and what risks to surrounding areas are associated with shooting the target.

The Gold Dot and Silvertips are designed to open more and penetrate less than the XTP's.

The lighter the bullet, the less penetration you will get into the target but the faster it will fly. A lighter bullet can deliver similar energy to the target and disipate it into the target at a shallower penetration depth.

The XTP's are denser in the center and have a smaller Hollow to allow more penetration and less expansion.

If i were looking for a self defense round and lived in an appartment building i would want the least penetrating round I could find. I wouldn't want to shoot through teh walls by accident. As i'm sure you know. It is very easy to miss a target under ideal circumstances and even more so when under pressure from an attacker.

All the rounds above have Plus' and Minus'. In the end it always comes down to the target and the risks.

If you were in an outright gunfight you would want a bullet with maximum penetration. Your opponent may be behind a barricade or structure that you need to punch through.

If you are in a self defense situation, up close and personal you would want max energy on the target without fear of shooting through the target.

It's always a compromise because you never know what the target is going to be or the circumstances.

Ideally you would want a bullet to penetrate a human target until it was about to break through the skin on the back, but not go through.

Of the bullets above plus the three i added. The penetration will increase with each from the 155gr silvertip to the 180gr gold dot.

The 155gr XTP will penetrate more than the 180gr gold dot and more with the 180XTP then more still with the 200gr.

If you think the target is going to be a skin and bones Hobo then use the 155 silvertip. If it's a massive football player use one of the XTP's.

My advice, considering you never know the target is to use an intermidiate like the 175silver or 180 gold dot or the 155 - 180gr XTP.

I prefer to mix my "Ready" mag with an assortment. I may have 175-180 silvertip or gold dot in the pipe followed by some 180gr XTP.

If you're in a situation and have shot enough to get to the xtp's all the innocent bystanders are scattered or dead and then it's time for penetration.

There are many pros and cons. One other issue is distance.
If you think you'll need to shoot at some distance you will want something with speed so you won't have to lob a bullet at the target.

Distance is not normally a factor in self defense but you never know what the other guy will have.

I wish i had teh answer to this question but nobody realy has an ideal bullet for all occasions. You just never know what the target is going to be and what the other circumstance are.

You can take the position as some do to go with the max and hope for teh best but, if you are typically in a set of circumstance optimize for that. If you find yourself some other way. You'll still be ok, you'll have a gun with ammo in it.

If you're going bear hunting you'll need to use a heavy FMJ or XTP but not in a .40

There are plenty of ideas on this subject.

feel free to break any of the above out and we'll discuss it further.

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  Well explained response!
  
  For all the detailed comments in this thread, particularly this one.
 
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Old 08-19-2010, 04:04 PM  swampfoxammo is offline     #3 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=Texas_XD;32210]Since your forum is, shall we say, on the small side, I thought I'd address these questions here instead on the ammo that interests me.

QUOTE]

LOL, The SWAMP is just an idea that has passed, I think.

Last edited by swampfoxammo; 08-19-2010 at 04:28 PM.
 
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Old 08-19-2010, 06:04 PM  patrick4588 is offline     #4 (permalink)
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or you could get the 10mm and use 165-180gr gold dots and get the same penetration as a .45acp in 230gr +p xtp rounds with a ton more energy and expansion. just saying...

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  For your great input in this thread and testing swampfoxs' ammo
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Old 08-19-2010, 07:09 PM  swampfoxammo is offline     #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick4588 View Post
or you could get the 10mm and use 165-180gr gold dots and get the same penetration as a .45acp in 230gr +p xtp rounds with a ton more energy and expansion. just saying...
You can get more penetration with a 10mm in just about every senario than a 45acp due to the difference in diameter and speed.

The 10 can bring significantly more energy to the target, smaller diameter means more penetration. Which may be good or bad, depending on what the target is.

Last edited by swampfoxammo; 08-19-2010 at 07:22 PM.
 
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Old 08-19-2010, 07:21 PM  swampfoxammo is offline     #6 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=Texas_XD;32210]
You list 3 different .40 S&W loads that may suit my needs:

1. 180gr. Gold Dot HP's - 1200fps @ 524ft/lb energy

2. 155gr Win. SilverTip HP's- 1325fps @ 600ft/lb energy

3. 175gr Win. SilverTip HP's- 1240fps @ 560ft/lb energy

What would be the benefits and negatives of using one of these three over the other two?
QUOTE]

The 175 or the 180 is as close as i can get to an answer.
 
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Old 08-19-2010, 07:57 PM  patrick4588 is offline     #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swampfoxammo View Post
You can get more penetration with a 10mm in just about every senario than a 45acp due to the difference in diameter and speed.

The 10 can bring significantly more energy to the target, smaller diameter means more penetration. Which may be good or bad, depending on what the target is.
but you can manipulate the penetration based on the load you carry. If a 45acp penetrates xxx, you can have a 10mm penetrate that same distance with substantially more energy.
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:52 PM  swampfoxammo is offline     #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by patrick4588 View Post
but you can manipulate the penetration based on the load you carry. If a 45acp penetrates xxx, you can have a 10mm penetrate that same distance with substantially more energy.
I'm not sure i'm following you, since written words can be misinterpretted but if you increase energy you will have to increase contact surface area proportionally to penetrate the same depth. The hole will be bigger though.

You would have to increase the amount of surface area of the 10 by the amount of the difference between it and the 45 plus the additional amount needed to dissipate the increased amount of energy. like a hollow point could do.

The problem that you would run into is how to increase the 10, even with a hollow point, to the size of a 45 with a hollow point,

plus and additional increase in surface area of the 10 by the amount of the additional energy.

Otherwise the 10 will penetrate farther given both slugs are in the same media.

It's a function of the amount of force applied over a given surface area.

If there is more force there will need to be a proportional increase in surface area compared to the 45 if you want it to penetrate the same.

Unless i don't understand what you are talking about exactly. Which seems likely.
 
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:57 PM  swampfoxammo is offline     #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patrick4588 View Post
or you could get the 10mm and use 165-180gr gold dots and get the same penetration as a .45acp in 230gr +p xtp rounds with a ton more energy and expansion. just saying...
What if the 45 and the 10 both had 200gr gold dots?
 
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Old 08-19-2010, 10:15 PM  Geek is offline     #10 (permalink)
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Is this a mistake?

Quote:
Originally Posted by swampfoxammo View Post

The lighter the bullet, the less penetration you will get into the target but the faster it will fly. A lighter bullet can deliver similar energy to the target and disipate it into the target at a shallower penetration depth.

The 155gr XTP will penetrate more than the 180gr gold dot and more with the 180XTP then more still with the 200gr.
 
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